Reply author: unoracer
Replied on: 26 Apr 2007 12:56:57
Message:

copy of e-mail sent to andy ref my gearbox experiences. Note -only my opinions and personal experience!!
On the gearbox side, I don't know whether you have the early 'strada' design box, but it probably is. the gearbox sychro design is not the best, although it is used overseas and can be made reliable with upgraded close ratio internals, but as you have said, the cost soon starts to spiral! I have been messing about a lot with gearing. For the first few seasons, I used a mk2 uno turbo gearbox and linkage, which will bolt onto your engine (still 1372cc in it??) The box in any case will fit any of the sohc (non fire ) design engine, ie 1290cc,1299cc,1301cc,1372cc,1498cc, 1301cc turbo, 1372cc turbo. The mk2 turbo box is the fiat tipo design, and is is a beefier stronger box than the mk1 strada box. I found this very reliable in my car, but you would need to at least change the crownwheel and pinion to lower the final drive, as it is very long geared for your engine.(But still not ideal for 1500 engine ratio wise) I also bought a B&M short shifter gear change when they were on offer at £40 from Eibach, and it reduces gear change throw by over 30% and makes a hell of a difference in gear change, so worth ringing Eibach and saying you will buy one 'if' they do same offer as they did previously!! I am currently having a lancia delta gearbox (strada design) fitted to my race car, and will find out whether the b&M shifter fits the different 'bottom change' linkage that it will use, and can let you know.
I am no mechanic, but with past experience of messing about/learning, I suggest that you:
a) find out what gearbox you have first. Does it have the gear linkage inside the car, that attaches to the top of the gearbox (which would confirm it is the later 'tipo' design box) or does the gearchange linkage run under the floor and attach to the bottom of the gearbox (suggesting strada type box)? Is it a hydraulic clutch? (again suggests tipo box) or cable (strada type)
b) in either box's case, I would try to get someone to rose joint the linkage ends for you (will give more precise gears) or at least buy brand new linkage, as they do wear.
c)Buy B&M shifter ( I will confirm to you whether it fits both strada type linkage as well as tipo box linkage over next week or so as its being worked on then).
d) Ideally, you need to find out from Neil, what ratios are in your box, what final drive he was running, so you have an idea where you are going with it, and to make sure you don't start going backwards with progress! (It 'sounded' close ratio to me)
e) Find out whether you are using tripod joint type drivehafts (only used on some strada boxes) or the bolt on Allen key type used on delta 1500's mk1 uno turbo and some bigger engined tipos. (You can see 6 or so allen key bolts where each driveshaft bolts to gearbox) The latter being beefier/stronger shafts for racing, but earlier ones still also used.
f) Take your car out on the track and study what speeds you are doing in each gear at a given rpm. You can then look at a gear ratio calculator on a pc and get some idea of what gearing you have. (you also need your rolling radius of your wheel/tyre for this)
I would also strongly advise that you always change synchros before you refit any box, as if its a used box, it is likely that they will be worn/crunchy!
My delta box is the same as the strada/uno turbo mk1 casing, so it uses bottom change gear linkage and has clutch cable, and also the stronger bolt on equal length driveshafts. The reason I am using it is that the delta 1500 box had a much closer ratio box. All I have done is fit new 3rd and 4th synchros, and changed the crownwheel and pinion to an x1/9 one which gives final drive of 4.077, which in plain english should give me 120mph at 7500 rpm in 5th. There is a good website called Jupiterfiatpower.tripod.com which sell close ratio gear kits and other race parts, but again , you are looking at £500-£1200 depending on the box used.

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Reply author: unoracer
Replied on: 26 Apr 2007 13:05:34
Message:

By the way guys, did you know that fiat fitted a 1581cc sohc 'tipo' engine in unos as standard in Brazil!? You can also still buy a stroker kit in Marcedonia to increase the 1498cc to 1600cc. (However I believe most of the parts needed come from standard oem tipo 1600 parts!) If my class ever changes from 1500cc to 1600cc, I would look at doing this mod as it apparantly makes a big diffeence with increase in torque. Sorry we are digressing away from fibreglass panels Andy, but hopefully its all interesting stuff to read! On the subject of lightweight bonnets, I would be in for getting a mould done, albeit I'd prefer mk2 bonnet shape for aerodynamics, in Carbon fibre, so a few more interested parties could soon bring the price down!?

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Reply author: Andy97
Replied on: 26 Apr 2007 13:08:52
Message:

There are not that many regs in the CSCC's "Tin Tops" series:

"This Series is for Saloon/Hatchback Cars, under 2 litre, 4 cylinder (non turbo/ supercharged, except diesel)

Original silhouette to be retained. Original engine, gearbox, and induction system type to be retained. No Sequential Gearbox's under any circumstances.
Class structure:
Class A - 1601cc to 2000cc multi-valve and all Turbo Diesels
Class B - 1601cc to 2000cc dual-valve and 1301cc - 1600cc multi-valve
Class C - 1301cc to 1600cc dual-valve and up to 1300cc multi-valve
Class D - up to 1300cc dual valve
Class E - Invitation
Cars to run on MSA list 1A/1B treaded tyres"

And that's it. The emphasis is on getting out & racing with the minimum fuss!

I guess that means that I could run a modified rear beam but I can't see it happening with my time & budget. I will concentrate on trying to get the gear change sorted & probably some plastic windows. If I had the money I might try the following: a straight cut gearkit with proper close ratios (first & second are very low & 5th wasn't used at Snetterton) & a reworked rose jointed linkage. A friend of mine has recommended such an idea. Does such a thing exist & anybody got any idea how much this would cost and where I might get that sort of kit from?

I am dreading the response to this question. ££££'s !!!!!! Oh well!

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Reply author: julian
Replied on: 26 Apr 2007 14:08:50
Message:

You should just about be hitting 5th at Snetterton down the back straight - if you aren't then either the engine is tired or you are simply not carrying enough speed through the corner - I know it is tricky and it is where the aforementioned handling traits come into their own.

My punto gets to about mid-peak revs in 5th and it only packs about 100bhp (on a good day) and all this on ordinary List 1a tyres. On the downside I don't have a speedo on board so I have no idea at all how this compares against the Uno in terms of actual speed an gearing. By comparison 5th gear is also needed for the main straight at Brands, the back straight at Silverstone, Mallory, Oulton, Cadwell, etc. The car certainly isn't that fast in terms of acceleration, especially when compared with the other cars in my series (racing a 1242 production spec Punto against touring cars and the like is never going to make the Punto look quick), that said when I first took the car out (at Llandow) the final lap times for the day were in the region of 55 seconds which is a very quick time on that circuit - the only car on the day to go faster was an Ariel Atom which should illustrate just how quick the Unos and Puntos are on the right track.

A straight cut gear-set is available from the likes of Colotti in Italy but it will set you back a good few thousand pounds to get it in your car. For most people that prices it straight out of the market but they have been known to let such things go cheap as they need space on their parts shelves.

A rose-jointed linkage could be fabricated relatively easily and there are plenty of places in the UK capable of such work. I'm pretty sure someone has already mentioned to me recently where to find one though.

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Reply author: Andy97
Replied on: 26 Apr 2007 14:25:55
Message:

The car seemed (relatively) quick in a straight line on both the back & pit straights at Snetterton and seemed to have good corner exit speed - most of the Maestros, Pugs & Metro GTi struggled against me & hence the reason I overtook 5 of them - so i don't think that the engine is tired, although I'll admit that my cornering technique could do with some work.

I was topping out at 7500 revs in 4th before changing down to third & then 2nd at the left-right under the bridge. Not sure of the speed, too busy to notice!

Thousands for gear kits is way out of the question!

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Reply author: unoracer
Replied on: 26 Apr 2007 19:54:13
Message:

If you have/can get hold of the '85-'88 uno turbo mk1/lancia delta 1500 bottom change box (strada design) which uses bolt on driveshafts, Jupiterfiatpower can supply a proper close ratio gear set for little over £500 plus shipping, which I don't think is bad. As I say, once you have compared what you have currently got, to the jupiter kit, you will only then know whether you have much to gain by getting one. (I don't think your current gearing is far wrong from what I saw of the car though!)

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Reply author: Martin
Replied on: 26 Apr 2007 20:01:14
Message:

Thanks Chris - thought you'd have done more up to date research and here's the proof!......

yes all but the last of the mk1 turbos carry the strada box.....
equal length drive shafts from the mk1 turbo are vital too.....

and boxing in the rear axle is a good point.... for the FRC regs... I was leaving it out coz if your regs give you the chance I'd rather start again.

Jupiter are going from strength to strength.... and your quick shift price is about 25% of the TAS one!
Jupiter reply to Tom: http://www.sfconline.org.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1532

Don't think capacity through stroker kit is the best way for the SOHC engines, unless you can get a twin cam head to go on.... it pays to keep these engines over-square..... and 1372 is about the ideal compromise... given the bore. The 1500cc X1/9 for instance just doesn't rev the same way as the 1300.... especially with race spec set ups....

think that's to do with the maximum chamber (&shape) and valve size. There is one guy we know that has access to the facilities to prove this.... from somewhere near Norwich.... and has recently researched the Uno Turbo version!

One of the last generation Italian taught tuners built an X1/9 using the Abarth Prototipo spec sohc - now owned by Gordan & Jan Mcgregor.... again it has the torque but doesn't rev as fast.... against this is the Anstead racing 1500 X1/9 which does a good job of revving hard. Geoff used CRS I think to build that engine. I'd really like to get these engines on a flow bench or dyno!

Forgot to ask Andy - what was your best lap time around Snetterton?

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Reply author: unoracer
Replied on: 26 Apr 2007 20:39:44
Message:

Yep, I have learnt a lot. Years of spinning off circuits out of control and breaking gear sticks in mid flight have helped me focus on these important issues! ;) I agree that the 1300cc engine does have the edge with revving capability, but the 1500cc is still very capable of revving to 8000rpm plus if built correctly. (I however still prefer reliability factor and shall limit myself to 7500-7800 me thinks!)

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Reply author: Martin
Replied on: 26 Apr 2007 23:05:01
Message:

Yes after 8000rpm the top end wear rate is massive...... I've had a look at a good few cams and followers off several race engines....

Yet the Trivellato engines in the seventies were doing more than this (eg the 128 Coupes in the ETTC)... they never say how frequent the re-builds were though!

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Reply author: Andy97
Replied on: 27 Apr 2007 07:22:06
Message:

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin


Forgot to ask Andy - what was your best lap time around Snetterton?

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Damn. I was dreading that question but I guess that it was inevitable! Oh well.... My best lap at Snetterton last Sat was 1 min 36 whilst my team mate had a best of 1 min 32.9. Last October my team mate qualified the car in 1 min 31.4 before the clutch went. I know that Neil could do 1 min 26 somethings on slicks (we are on Yoko A0048s). My excuse is that I was in a sh!t fight as I overtook 6 cars in the first few laps & then had to defend against a 2 litre Maestro for 3 or 4 more laps before the driver change. Nigel ran in clear traffic!! Oh, and I had a full tank of fuel, and I had the aforementioned gear selection difficulties and we'd guessed at tyre pressures and we hadn't tested and it was my first time at Snet.........!

Am I sounding too defensive??!! Probably just lack of talent!

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Reply author: julian
Replied on: 27 Apr 2007 07:58:47
Message:

You'll be disappointed to know that Neil never had such luxuries as a clear track. Auto-Italia ran a class system in which the Uno fitted near the bottom but the grid was reversed so the more powerful, quicker cars started from the back. Typically these were 300bhp Alfa 75 ex-tourers. You end up spending as much time dodging faster cars coming through from behind as you did blocking the mid-range pack. Ultimately you scored points amongst your class so there was nothing to gain in blocking outside the class but it often gave the edge in keeping your direct competitors a bit further back.

All that said Neil came very close to an outright win at Brands Hatch on one occasion which takes an incredible amount of doing!

It isn't lack of talent Andy, just lack of practice and experience with the car.

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Reply author: anonymous1
Replied on: 27 Apr 2007 10:04:56
Message:

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Reply author: Andy97
Replied on: 27 Apr 2007 10:39:01
Message:

quote:

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Originally posted by sumplug

B*lls of steel or braveness edging onto craziness required .
In all seriousness, smooth driving with correct use of brakes and small steering input is the fastest way round. Seesawing at the wheel, and braking through corners just slows you down imo.
Perhaps Andy if you look at some of your competition, and find how long they have been driving their race cars, will show how much each driver/car has to improve. I think you will find quite a few have reached their limit, where as you are just starting out. You know there is several seconds to be gained, which will wipe most of the opposition out and put you right up the positions!!
Practice, practice and more practice, and suddenly it all clicks[you hope!], and you and the car suddenly start lapping quickly!!!!

Andy.

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Don't think that I have "b*lls of steel or braveness edging on to craziness", unfortunately, but I know that I am getting a bit better and even with my lap times I was quicker than a few of the bigger engined cars and raced well/ overtook several of them. TBH, it was probably my best race performance, albeit my first in a saloon. I have done about 20 races in single seaters over the last 4 years (Monoposto 1800 & Monoposto 2000 in a Vauxhall Junior 16V and a Vauxhall-Lotus) but have always been at the back and have not had the confidence to really push - when I did, I ended up spinning! I have more confidence in the Uno and it seems to suit me more than the single seater - perhaps because, like most people, my experience is mostly FWD these days? I'm sure that the lap times will improve further with some more seat time. Can't wait until Brands Hatch on 6 May.

As an aside, this thread has wandered way off Glass Fibre panels! Perhaps the thread should be re-titled "Andy's Race Uno" or something similar and I'll keep it updated with news of each event.

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Reply author: Martin
Replied on: 27 Apr 2007 10:49:20
Message:

quote:

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Originally posted by Andy97

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin


Forgot to ask Andy - what was your best lap time around Snetterton?

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Damn. I was dreading that question but I guess that it was inevitable! Oh well.... My best lap at Snetterton last Sat was 1 min 36 whilst my team mate had a best of 1 min 32.9. Last October my team mate qualified the car in 1 min 31.4 before the clutch went. I know that Neil could do 1 min 26 somethings on slicks (we are on Yoko A0048s). My excuse is that I was in a sh!t fight as I overtook 6 cars in the first few laps & then had to defend against a 2 litre Maestro for 3 or 4 more laps before the driver change. Nigel ran in clear traffic!! Oh, and I had a full tank of fuel, and I had the aforementioned gear selection difficulties and we'd guessed at tyre pressures and we hadn't tested and it was my first time at Snet.........!

Am I sounding too defensive??!! Probably just lack of talent!

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Yes - too defensive.... you are where you are.

Its still one of the best ways to judge what's going on! And when you make changes try and get sector times too if the track is set up for it.

The first main step is to see if your lap times are consistent (bet you've had this sort of conversation with someone in driving school & your single seater)

Once you are delivering accurate lines each time - and your lap times are within 0.1 of a second each lap, every lap, then you have a platform to move your driving and changes to the car. It also helps to have another driver in your car.... at this point, go out with some one else and follow him around the circuit... see what he does differently.... watch I mean really watch the class leaders lines etc the same way.

Only at this point do you have a baseline to test from. And the changes come from driver and car alike. You then can put down about 50 timed laps on a test - with a range of changes planned.... and with notes/ times in a book you have the platform for a class win.... on a budget.

This is the cheapest and quickest way to improve.

The alternative is the way of the bodger - its actually more to do with 'don't bother me with all that, I'm here to have fun (& adrenalin kick)'.... in which case it will take you 2 - 3 seasons to reach the same point. (That's usually about 6-10 times the time and cost by the way - so much for 'I don't have time to test'.)

You can hear the difference in the paddocks....
the Way of the Bodgers is all about a junky's reaction - 'if only I had more power, I could catch x and y' - who always are just ahead of me... etc. They also spend money on the the most expensive mods - the engine first normally. There's always someone just ahead.... and more money to spend - some spend a lot more.

In fact in club events the car's next four seconds off the lap time has nothing to do with more power... Driving skill, the best tyres, adjustable suspension and weight saving - then diff/ ratio swopping, better ignition/ ecu have little to do with more power! And the next four seconds off your lap time is about accuracy and practice, with a bit of car tweaking.

Hope your mobile has a stopwatch function!!

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Reply author: Martin
Replied on: 27 Apr 2007 11:17:36
Message:

As an aside, this thread has wandered way off Glass Fibre panels! Perhaps the thread should be re-titled "Andy's Race Uno" or something similar and I'll keep it updated with news of each event.


Better still why don't I give you a project topic in our Project Area??

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Reply author: Andy97
Replied on: 27 Apr 2007 11:43:03
Message:

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin

As an aside, this thread has wandered way off Glass Fibre panels! Perhaps the thread should be re-titled "Andy's Race Uno" or something similar and I'll keep it updated with news of each event.


Better still why don't I give you a project topic in our Project Area??

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Happy with that.

Andy

There, tis done http://www.sfconline.org.uk/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=29

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Reply author: Martin
Replied on: 27 Apr 2007 12:11:35
Message:

Great Andy -

by the way I need a bit of feedback on my comments above re your lap time consistency.... then I can grade comments according to where you've got to.... rather than assuming to start with basics ...

you have to say if all this already done with......

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Reply author: Martin
Replied on: 27 Apr 2007 13:15:17
Message:

I think Neil's original setup on this car was quite deliberate - to get through traffic fast he could exploit his third or fourth row from the back grid position (ahead of the fastest big engined cars behind him).

This setups main advantage is its agility and speed from before the apex... I'll repeat it allows you to choose your line and attack (be full on it) from before the apex of any sharpish corner.

At the point in the turn when most of the club drivers are waiting for the apex to arrive.... so he could build a rapid buffer of six or so cars ahead of the big engined stuff behind. I should go and look at lap times one day.
And in the damp/wet there is little modification needed.

But mine is no good for track days - as I can never convince the marshals that I HAVE to accelerate or spin in a corner.... whether I'm supposed to overtake there or not..... and I prefer it on slicks.

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Reply author: Andy97
Replied on: 27 Apr 2007 14:19:54
Message:

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin

Great Andy -

by the way I need a bit of feedback on my comments above re your lap time consistency.... then I can grade comments according to where you've got to.... rather than assuming to start with basics ...

you have to say if all this already done with......

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Martin

My lap times were:
1 min 40.8, 38.0, 38.1, 38.3, 36.0, 36.6, 37.2, 36.8, 37.4

My partners times were:
1 min 37.7, 35.9, 34.3, 36.2, 35.1, 32.9, 33.7, 33.7, 33.4, 33.7

Traffic was definately and issue in my stint!! Not sure why Nigel dropped 2 secs a lap half way through his stint.

I have had some instruction over the winter in my 944T & so I am working on my technique & consistency. I can recommend Simon Mason (www.motorsport-tuition.com), by the way.

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Reply author: nyssa7
Replied on: 27 Apr 2007 20:26:07
Message:

Just a couple of small points:

Julian - Neil Smith did score an outright win in the Uno at Croix in 2002, strangely in the second race that weekend I beat him for the first time since Silverstone 2000 where the Y10 had out-powered the Uno. But he was limping round with the manifold hanging off

At Snetterton Neil would have had little trouble getting in clear laps, many of the AI races were a little under-subscribed and Snetterton is a long lap

Martin - Neil almost always started from pole, the reverse grid only operated by class, so that class E was at the front followed by DCBA, but within class you lined up fastest first. Hence in 2002 at least Neil probably started every race on pole and led many of them at the end of the first lap (there used to be a prize on offer for that)

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Reply author: Andy97
Replied on: 30 Apr 2007 07:29:37
Message:

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin

I suspect most of the major mechanicals are semi-exotic so the gearbox may be an Italian race item.... and then parts of the engine may also be an expensive import.... poor gear selection may be to do with mixing standard and exotic parts.


Can you post a picture of the steering wheel position, and how it is attached to the dash frame.... it doesn't sound like a standard setup....

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I have checked the gear box spec from an old e-mail from Neil. It is running a standard uno turbo geabox with a lower ratio final drive from a 1.0 litre. We think it also had a 5th gear from a mk 1 lancia delta turbo which is an arbarth lower ratio gear kit, apparently.

A picture of the Uno steering column angle can be found here:

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2213961140075034447QFtLMD?vhost=rides

and a photo of the rest of the interior and cage is found here:

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2420156280075034447iJKZsy?vhost=rides

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Reply author: Martin
Replied on: 30 Apr 2007 10:45:06
Message:

I've got Julian Cann to sign on again - given him a new password - so I'll email him to get some comments.......

Also thanks Andy for the lap times.... could your partner tell you what happened halfway through his stint then? Its usual that someone he was following gave him a couple of good ideas on line etc..

When I have time - I'll tease out all the comments mixed up here for your Project Forum page.

Thanks Trev - for the Neil race info - so NJS must've disappeared off into the distance!

This Uno setup he championed sort of makes sense though, but it is a balancing act, and only works really well on slicks as it relies on the instant re-sticking of the rear end on acceleration.... you cannot stop it spinning with opposite lock ... it do-n't work! Now I've said that to every one of the twelve guest drivers in the 'yellow peril'... without exception they nod, go out and spin it. So I conclude Neil dialed out this behaviour before selling his car... eventually to Andy.

Now its a different game, and I really need to go see how the car behaves in corners for real.

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Reply author: Andy97
Replied on: 01 May 2007 16:59:39
Message:

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin

I've got Julian Cann to sign on again - given him a new password - so I'll email him to get some comments.......

Also thanks Andy for the lap times.... could your partner tell you what happened halfway through his stint then? Its usual that someone he was following gave him a couple of good ideas on line etc..

When I have time - I'll tease out all the comments mixed up here for your Project Forum page.

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Martin, thanks for transferring some of the content, here, to the new "Uno R project section". It will be useful (hopefully to others, too) to be able to follow the different topics that cropped up in this series of posts in a series of seperate topic threads. Time consuming to achieve, though, I expect.

It would be good to hear Julian Cann's opinions on some of this, too. I have also been in e-mail contact with "Unoracer", and his advice & experience is valuable. I am currently trying to find out all I can about close ratio gear boxes from Colloti and Jupiter but I have not yet had the small premium bond or lottery win that I'll probably need to procure one of those!!

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Reply author: nyssa7
Replied on: 01 May 2007 21:17:18
Message:

Heavily suspect the gearbox is standard Uno Turbo, I remember Wes and Jo running all round the NW the night before the race at Oulton in 2003 looking for a box, sure they said Uno Turbo at the time

Really would be surprised if Neil dialled out the behaviour of the car before selling. Don't recall if Jo spun it or not, I know Emma (Mrs Neil) tried it at Donington, and she spun it

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Reply author: Andy97
Replied on: 02 May 2007 07:00:17
Message:

I haven't spun it yet - obviously not trying hard enough!

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Reply author: nyssa7
Replied on: 02 May 2007 07:04:13
Message:

Or maybe you're driving technique is the correct one, only time I ever recall Neil spinning it was his third ever race at Oulton, but it was very wet that day

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Reply author: Andy97
Replied on: 02 May 2007 09:26:54
Message:

quote:

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Originally posted by nyssa7

Or maybe you're driving technique is the correct one, only time I ever recall Neil spinning it was his third ever race at Oulton, but it was very wet that day

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Crikey, I don't think that anyone has ever suggested that my technique might be correct! I used to spin my old single seater (an FVJ) too frequently!

I do know that my lap times are well down on Neils - perhaps I need to be much nearer the edge of the envelope to get close to spinning, but I will also be way quicker.

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Reply author: julian
Replied on: 02 May 2007 11:41:54
Message:

Spinning these Unos is usually down to a small number of driver errors

1) Panic braking - if you have to do then you need to left foot brake and keep some throttle on to overcome the front slowing faster than the rear. Even just lifting off can do the same (see below)

2) Off-throttle oversteer - these cars can be really viscious in this respect, if there is *any* yaw as you come off throttle the car will start to spin. You can either left-foot brake as a precaution or be very quick on the throttle to pull the front forwards. As Martin has already pointed out opposite lock will not rescue the situation, if you are on brakes this can actually make it worse as you are levering the rear through the steering rather than turning the front wheels relative to the direction of travel.

3) Erratic driving - a degree of manhandling (from my experience) works wonders with an unstable car like this as you can make the car exceptionally agile provided you are ready for the consequences. If it is just erratic driving for to get the wheels squeeling then it is going to end in tears. Coming from a single seater background you will probably find that your style of driving is relatively smooth (even if it wasn't always smooth enough) and you aren't pushing the handling envelope of the Uno where it is vulnerable. Despite the rather forceful cornering technique this is all about grace rather than brutality and more akin to "drifting" than touring car driving.

4) Unexpected yaw input - in the case of FRC and other tin-top series there is a degree of contact and when a car is unstable it has obvious consequences. Because the cars are always on edge the opportunity to spin a competitor just by rubbing a rear quarter under braking or cornering is so great as to be irresistable or perhaps unavoidable. It only takes one car ahead to make a small mistake and suddenly everyone behind is in a situation where they cannot readily avoid the incident without spinning or hitting someone else. If someone taps the rear or the car runs over some pronounced camber or even just a slippery kerb while the engine is not under load it can have much the same effect.

If the front of the car is always pulling forward (relative to the rear) it is very hard to spin one of these cars until you exceed the limits of grip at the front. Being relatively low power this is a thankfully rare occurance but it does still happen - most often after the mid-point of a race when the tyres are beginning to overheat and the level of traction is dropping off quite dramatically. If you run on slicks it is exceptionally hard to over-heat the tyres, even 1b tyres are very resiliant but 1a tyres are another matter altogether. More than about 10 minutes will see them start to go-off, more than 15 minutes can leave you struggling for grip, 20 minutes is getting into tyre suicide territory.

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Reply author: Martin
Replied on: 02 May 2007 11:50:58
Message:

quote:

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Originally posted by nyssa7

Or maybe you're driving technique is the correct one, only time I ever recall Neil spinning it was his third ever race at Oulton, but it was very wet that day

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This is cobblers - it takes a specialist technique to keep an unstable car on line through a corner....
not "the correct one" - if you haven't tried a car with this sort of set up then you don't understand at all.
The difference is glaring and very obvious to anyone driving!

Repeat Summary:
If you have a grossly front heavy small car, and you're forced to keep the car's standard suspension setup (a la Auto-Italia production classes) it is a very good way to dial out the inherent understeer.... but all unnecessary in a series like Andy's. Given the ease with which the changes can be made (see post above) it would make sense to re-set the car to a more stable setup for sale/ none production formulae.

Having recently tried Unos from FRC's regs, and other series like the Combe Club championship, I'd say on sticky tyres Neil's set up is atleast as fast in any conditions, and faster in some. But again, the chance to re design the rear axle/ suspension would give the race uno the cornering speed it deserves (and cars like the old racing minis got to 20 years ago).

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Reply author: nyssa7
Replied on: 03 May 2007 07:12:39
Message:

Allow me to clarify - correct driving technique for the car. There is no such thing as correct driving techniqque to be applied globally, every car is different. I merely suggested that maybe Andy is already driving the Uno in the correct fashion for the Uno

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Reply author: anonymous1
Replied on: 03 May 2007 09:30:58
Message:

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Reply author: anonymous1
Replied on: 03 May 2007 09:32:20
Message:

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Reply author: nyssa7
Replied on: 03 May 2007 19:21:58
Message:

quote:

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Originally posted by sumplug

His track times suggest otherwise Trev. Much more to come!

Andy.

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Doesn't mean he's not driving it right, just too slow! I've not seen Andy so this is not a criticism or critique - lap times can be different for a number of reasons:

different lines
different cornering speed
braking too soon
not braking hard enough
getting back on the throttle at different times
etc etc etc

bloody complicated, this race car driving malarkey

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Reply author: Andy97
Replied on: 04 May 2007 10:45:02
Message:

I have been out with an instructor a few times over the winter/ spring at Silverstone and Cadwell (albeit in my 944T) & I have improved. Honestly! I am probably suffering from braking too early and too hard for the quick stuff and not late or hard enough for the slow stuff. However, instruction at Silverstone eventually meant that I was able to nail (for example) Stowe by the afternoon session & go (quote by the instructor), "as quick as it is possible to go through there in that car, on those tyres" (unquote). I was quite pleased with that.

My biggest problem(s) is that I lack a bit of self belief and I lack consistency so 6 corners out of 8 will go really well and I'll screw 2 up or, I'll do a few reasonable laps and then have one horrendous lap which costs me big time and confidence. That said, the Uno inspires more confidence than the FVJ or FVL do but I just don't have much seat time and have never raced a FWD car until last week. Mind you, the times might not have been great at Snetterton during my stint but I was coming through the back of the field to take 5-6 bigger engined cars so I didn't do too bad, and back to an old theme (excuse), I reckon that I was easily losing a second and a half on every lap with gear change problems. That may take time to fix (which I have) & £ (which I don't!).

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Reply author: julian
Replied on: 04 May 2007 11:52:40
Message:

The consistency aspect comes from two seperate directions, the first is the environment (primarily the car) itself needs to be consistent to within a small factor on each lap. If this is changing constantly then consistent laps will be hard to achieve. The second direction is the driver, not necessarily from driving skill but from mental discipline.

If you are concentrating on where to brake, how much to brake, where to turn, etc. then you aren't racing so much as just getting around the track. It is easy to make mistakes in this mental mode but it all adds up over time to create a sub-concious compartmentalised process. Once you get to this mental state you find that instead of working on where to brake you are working on where to pass (or defend). You already do this for the basic driving skills (if you don't then I suspect you would find driving on the road almost impossible). To accelerate this process there are mental exercises that can help (it sounds like a joke but toys like the brain training software on the nintendo pocket console are quite remarkable in how they allow ) but ultimately you need seat time on each circuit to program your brain, the key here being repetition - do it enough times and you cease to perform the action conciously.

The tricky gearshift is a prime example of where you are having problems though - normally the shift is subconcious, you don't think about how to do it, in fact I would bet that you don't even think about which gear you are selecting, you just do it. When it goes wrong though you are forced to perform a mental mode switch and all of a sudden your concentration is divided between the track, the cars around you and your own car. In terms of mental processing it is a big deal and can cause a big upset to concentration, it is also quite significantly slower. Subconcious processes are significantly faster than concious ones - your general mental agility will be the distinguishing factor far more than the more obvious physical reaction time. Exercising your brain every day (doing crosswords, mental arithmetic, etc.) is a proven method of improving that agility factor even though it bears little relation to driving.

If you want to get really clever I would recommend spending some time on the more realistic driving games that have proliferated on games consoles and computers. I am hesitant to describe them as simulations but the same mental processes are going on although there is always the danger of the invincibility factor creeping in, this is to a degree good as overcoming the "fear" factor on the circuit is vital to getting the lap times down, when it comes to driving in the wet it pays to be slightly cautious but if you are just plain scared you need to get out of the car before you cause an accident. For those of us who have raced on a circuit in the wet we know just how much faith you have to put in the other drivers around you to behave in a consistent manner inspite of the conditions as you simply cannot rely on visual clues. A stray driver in these conditions is a recipe for disaster.

The interesting thing is that in the wet more than any other you are driving the circuit on automatic. The concentration needs to be on what is going on around you rather than where the circuit is. Anyone putting in fast lap times in these conditions has either achieved that mental discipline or is just plain suicidally brave.

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Reply author: mike
Replied on: 13 May 2007 22:15:16
Message:

hi andy,if you want information 0n your race uno neil smith runs his own garage in pershore,worcs; tel.01386 555523 im sure he would give you the spec.

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Reply author: mike
Replied on: 13 May 2007 22:29:13
Message:

please ignore last post i am new to this game, didnt realise there were 6 pages on this topic.

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